EPISODE 3 - BRAND NEUTRALITY - TRANSCRIPT

Host Sonoo Singh - Founder, Creative Salon

Amy Williams - Founder, Good Loop

Amir Malik - MD / Digital Marketing Expert, Accenture Interactive.

As a communications industry, our brand messages do not exist within a vacuum – in fact they have very immediate, real world impact across todays hyper connected digital media landscape. This technology includes the rise of social media, which has enabled consumers to have a direct dialogue with brands, and in turn demand more from brands to use their platform and influence to have a positive impact on society

Sonoo:  Hello, and welcome to the Conscious Thinking podcast from the Conscious Advertising Network. This is next in the series of thought-provoking sessions around the question of what is conscious advertising. Today we're going to be talking about brand neutrality and why creativity has consequences. I'm your host Sonoo Singh, Founder Creative Salon and with me, I have a vision Amy Williams Founder at Good Loop and Amir Malik the Digital Marketing Expert from Accenture Interactive. Welcome both, thanks for being here.

Now, let's dive straight into this. As a communications industry our brand messages do not exist within a vacuum, we do know that.  Also, in a world where capitalism is broken, social abilities falling, the pandemic has exposed weaknesses in the economy as never before. I'll start with you Amy, ‘What is the role of brands when it comes to influencing a positive impact on society?’

Amy:  Oh such a meaty question, I think that the role of brands in society has become increasingly important, we felt over the last six months that we’re really relying on friends to help us, to reassure us. To help fill some of the gaps that you've already mentioned in how we feel about our own political empowerment or in climate safety, there's so many areas of the world that that are honestly quite scary, and business is a really big part of how we as consumers can feel empowered to make change.

So I would say that there's really sort of two layers to how a brand can operate within this context, the first layer would just be ensuring the basic elements of the business have a positive impact on the world, and I frame this more as a sort of traditional responsibility I suppose, but all brands should have as little climate impact as possible, all brands should promote a diverse workforce.  So ,there's the basic stuff that just means that the business is as much as possible, helping not hindering.  And then the second layer is what is that one or two key issues that your brand is really going to champion? What is the mission behind your business and how can that connect with your consumers at a more emotional level?

So, you know, every brand isn't about changing the world, but every brand has some area where they can authentically help and that is where purpose can really come to life.

Sonoo:  So let's take that a bit further. So Amir with obviously your consultancy hat on, do you really think businesses need to drive that political change, or does there need to be a fine balance between maintaining politically, or socially neutral position today’? Like Amy said, obviously you do probably need to believe in one or two, you can't change the world overnight, but what's that right balance that needs to be maintained?

Amir:  It's actually a really good question. In principle, yes, I think what you find is that brands as businesses, really need to be segmented in terms of where they are in the lifecycle of their business, so there's an old saying ‘every company is a psychopath’.  That means that businesses basically are about growth and about profit.  It's a facetious way of me saying that companies are struggling to survive, if they are just starting up which probably would be an easier scenario.  I think you could see where the prioritisation of whether they're pivoting to new ways of working, disruption etc, might be the front of their agenda. But if you take a segment of businesses that have reached that critical mass, scaling, growing influential. profit positive  … might not even just be profit positive when you look at some of the big tech, making lots of money and everything is healthy, I think, using their power, their influence, it’s important that they definitely are contributing to purpose led initiatives.  More globalised human existential questions that we need to answer. It's not for every business to be able to execute against that ask, but it is something that should be built probably in every startups conceptual beginning, that they are thinking about moving forward now.   Companies have existed for 30 years ago that are multibillion-dollar businesses now.  They need to change their mindset and they need to incorporate sustainability and they need to incorporate purpose as well.   And that's hard in some instances.  And then other companies are less old and have reached that epic status, I think they do have a responsibility so for me is it's a yes. But a nuanced yes. 

Sonoo:  So let's talk about some real life examples here. For instance you talk about some of the older, more established businesses and of course some of the newer businesses and brands that are coming up now, that they don't have a choice but to talk about its own purpose and therefore what impact it is that they will have on societies and the people that they serve.  What are the real-life examples you can think of?  For instance, something like the Unilever with its roots in Quaker roots, but also which has almost become this cheerleader in the purpose-driven business world. But apart from Unilever, Amy I will start with you, what are the other businesses that you're seeing which are having that real-life impact when it comes to positivity? 

Amy:  Yeah, I think there are some huge businesses that are taking this very seriously now, Danone for instance is now the world's biggest B Corporation, which means that they have baked ethical and transparent practices into the legal foundations of their business. It's a real shining light for other businesses to follow. At Good Loop we work with lots of businesses across the spectrum who are global household names that are using purpose as a way to differentiate and we talked before about the newer brands, the start-up’s, the ones are growing fast, the cool new exciting brands, they all have sustainability and social responsibility baked in. There is almost no point starting a business today that do not have these things at its core.   And so in order for the big, slow, giants to keep up, they are having to use sustainability as a way to differentiate. We just ran a campaign with Bank of the West, and they are one of the first banks in the US to divest from fossil fuels, they have a 1% of the planet Checking Account which really empowers their consumers to do good with their savings. It’s a really lovely way to illustrate how they’re different to all of the other banks.   Banking is an area where Larry Fink has been a very vocal advocate for purpose as part of the profit-making cycle of a business.  I think that the financial industry as a whole is a sector where they need the public trust to rebuild, they need to grow that sentiment with their consumers and so purpose is absolutely crucial

Sonoo:  Amir what are you favourite examples, but also within that, can you also think of examples of brands that, or indeed consumers, let’s think about consumers for a moment here, because we need to think of the ‘Four P’s’ of marketing,  There is still some truth in that, isn’t there?  Especially when it comes to price, customers will still go where price is the primary intent. So, when it comes to price vs purpose, how do you draw that line as to whether purpose is more powerful or whether price is where you need to be at? 

Amir:  Pricing is different in different markets as a go to market strategy in terms of just how mature it is, and how much damage is done to particular sectors.  If you just take the telco sector, pricing and tariff wars really damages the profitability of those companies and then it's a race to the bottom. And so not everywhere is price driven, to be honest with you if you look in the Scandinavian countries, they’re less price driven than let's say in America, for instance, and you see these different varying approaches to price globally. If you go, and I will stop short of mentioning regions now, that across the world people respond differently to price culturally, and what I would say is that purpose still has power.

The example I’d use is if you look at Nike and Kaepernick bending the knee and also how Nike stamped the ‘Just Do It’ synergy of that message to Black Lives Matter as a message.   Consumers responded, even though they've been hit by Covid, they recently published that campaign single handily was responsible for billions of dollars of revenue. About $3 billion, and that it had a positive uplift around revenue generation. So you can see that there is an intersection between I guess relating your brand to big existential human issues in a positive way, in an embracive way, and actually getting strong consumer response.  We’re finding that the customer is now taking that variable into consideration in mature markets and people are thinking about wastage and their thinking about the production behind what they are acquiring.    

Apple has just announced I think for iPhone 12 that they are going to remove the charger to reduce carbon emissions. The interesting aspects is that on the P&L that moves billions of dollars in different ways. Positive and negative actually to be honest, and we will see how that manifests, and I think it is the actually is the right thing to do. My opinion is that that's the right thing to do ..   the plastic and all of that beyond things that I don't even realise that are going into it.  But companies like Apple and Nike are making these decisions and these are of course epic, sort of tier one businesses, and consumers are not responding badly, in the Apple example they are actually responding positively.   In UK like 60% of mobile devices are Apple devices, they are iPads and they are iPhones, and if you look at that, you say ‘well, okay, that whole loyal following they have actually buy into that principle because there's not really been any outrage’, people embrace that and they see it as a positive thing how it is shared.  Nike as well, they really, really did something quite special there.  Adidas responded by sharing a tweet saying ‘We are with you Nike on this’, so you get two massively competitive brands coming together to embrace a human problem, address a human problem, or even raise the awareness of that human problem, at huge risk right, because that could backfire. So I think doing the right thing is definitely becoming more fielded on the table at corporate/executive level, more than it ever has been. 

Amy:  I would add to that actually, just from a consumer perspective on price. Ultimately, it's a value decision and where you do see a premium on price because of a purpose, right brand purpose is all about differentiation it's about buying Dove soap rather than buying generic label, but the value that the consumer then sees in society, because of how Dove has really framed the conversation around female beauty or the way that Dove has actually funded self-esteem workshops for kids around the world, I think that idea, that purpose has to fundamentally have impact underneath it, because that impact is how you then explain the added price, it’s the value exchange in society.

Sonoo:  But let's not forget that Dove also has sister products so within Unilever they do sell whitening brands in emerging markets as well.  But just on that point of these tier one brands that we're talking about. The question remains that not everyone will have the kind of balls that Nike does or indeed the deep pockets of the likes of Unilever or indeed Apple would have as well. I'm curious in terms of the hesitancy that some brands might have to wade into any kind of political or social debate. What would you advise? How do you navigate that social impact of the brand and, are there any kind of best practices? I know Amy, you talk or you use the word authentic, but how do you bake that into what you're actually doing, what would you tell brands that are still kind of sitting on the fence? 

Amy:  Yeah, I would say that authentic piece comes from really focussing inwardly first and often purpose can feel inauthentic when it's built by a marketing team or storytelling objective, rather than built by the business from impact led objective. So, you know, it's the equivalent of volunteering so you can take pictures for Instagram, and I always say, where's the purpose come from where's this conversation started within the business, a really wonderful example of a brand that has put action front and centre of their purpose is the BrewDog stuff that’s happening at the moment. They’ve officially become the first carbon negative beer in the world and they’ve committed to remove twice as much carbon from the air as they produced in their entire existence. They've worked with experts and developed acts and platforms to help inform their consumers, they have worked across their supply chain and drilled into every level of the business from packaging to ingredients. That is an incredibly authentic action, driven by a purpose that's actually increased their consideration score by over five points in four months.

Sonoo:  Well, what about you Amir?  Are there any tools or best practice examples that you think can help some of these brands.

Amir:  Yes.  If you look at Nike they have tremendous instincts when it comes to marketing and have that as part of their heritage. The real change that you want to try, I think is a transitional change right, so we're talking about transforming companies in terms of the ethics, in terms of their purpose. You can’t do that by brute force. It's like the human mind it needs to change and that is a risk for us, that's a risk to humanity I guess, but it is the way and I think you need to give measured, sustainable milestones around transformation of businesses, that they can follow, that therefore the business survives as well, because the core of a business has historically, for the last 200 years, been about growth and been about revenue. And I think that is changing that core. And how do you seed in new purpose into the core?  Some companies are doing it quicker than others, but they will need a helping hand there I think, and there’s a big opportunity there, for the right minds to come together to influence those businesses in the correct way.

Sonoo:  We start we started this discussion with the big questions and Amir you brought it back so it’s full circle really talking about humanity and talking about how, whatever the brand messages that have been put out there, obviously there is an immediate real world impact across the hyper connected digital landscape that we are all a part of, brands, businesses and indeed the consumers.  So the last question I have for both of you and Amir let's start with you on this one, is obviously what we are really talking about at the core of this is also brands in the societies and the communities that we live in. It’s all about strengthening the democracies that we are part of, but obviously that requires some kind of coordinated effort on our parts. Is there something that you would say to the industry, on how to come together and make that happen?

Amir:  That’s really hard.  Ok so I would caveat that this would probably be a personal view, but I would say there is a case for, if you look at us at the Bilderberg Group, I don’t know if you guys know that (laughs in background), now that’s a facetious comment but the point being, is there an equivalent that needs to be established for the world's largest businesses?   So if you add together the top 100 FTSE & NASDAQ companies, their combined net worth is probably larger than the GDP of most of the planet. So, what happens if you bring them together some for commonised goals, for progressive humanity? I think we're facing the point of it’s not a question of progressing humanity actually, it’s is about human existence or non-existence.  And how can you accelerate that with the right authority.  Democracy is an interesting word okay because democracy, first prerequisite is an Informed electorate or informed voter. We are seeing Far Right leaders, rise through democratic processes, who deny climate change and deny these things. So who is the authority that brings these entities together. That's a problem for us I think.

I would say it's about bringing together these businesses. I don’t know if democracy is the relevant term, I would say that it's about commonised, necessary goals that we need to align on and maybe starting by just the market cap of your company immediately makes you accountable, at a government edict level, not a ‘by choice’ level.

Sonoo:  Indeed, and I suppose what you're obviously saying is that really looking towards a world where businesses need to drive some kind of positive change and whether business is not the problem but perhaps the solution to the world that we living in. 

Amir:  Correct, I’m not squeezing the local high street business, once you reach that point where you have bred wealth creation across that business right, you have responsibilities as a business.

Sonoo:  So shall we have the last word from you Amy?   Because obviously your Good Loop business is almost always predicated around that, to try and do good for that kind of circular economy in some respect isn’t it?

Amy:  Yeah absolutely, and just to give this a lens of marketing and the decisions we make within our marketing departments that can help further those goals Amir talked about.  We work really closely with the Conscious Advertising Network at Good Loop and I think that they do a fantastic job of framing the purchase decisions that a marketer makes and how that demand shapes so much of the internet and so much of the precious free journalism that keeps us safe and keeps our democracy safe.  So we work a lot with brands to say, whatever your purpose is and we have talked on this call a little about how brands can call their purpose from many different places depending on where they most authentically have got  a voice and can most meaningfully help.  But once they’ve identified what those values are and thinking about their ad spend, how their media dollars, which is normally about 90% of their budget, is a huge part of their influence, how those dollars can be spent in a way that reflects and reinforces their values, and protects quality journalism, amplifies voices who are most affected by hate or misinformation, you know all those really important things that ultimately ladder up to the business responsibility that I think would be absolutely crucial to making sure businesses have a good rule in society.

Sonoo:  Thank you so much, both Amy and Amir. This is the Conscious Thinking podcast, which is here to provoke you and ask some of the hard questions. So thank you for taking part both of you. Also a huge thank you to the Conscious Advertising Network partners The Rattle Collective and The Nerve as well.

Keep listening, there’s much more to come. Bye bye.